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Quality of in-camera jpeg production, D850
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May 5, 2024 09:33:48   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Mike1017 wrote:
Did you PROCESS the raw file before you compared it to the jpeg ? or maybe I did not understand

Assuming your talking to me, yes. When I saw the light was when I found my EDITED jpgs vs were often better than my EDITED RAW files. Normally, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference, and on occasion, the RAW file came out better than the jpg, but not often enough for me to continue shooting raw. I did this on one large batch of photo's all shot at the same time and location, with poor lighting. Normally I would have just shot raw and been happy with what I got, but I left the camera on both jpg and raw and thought it a good time to test my curiosity.

After a LOT of fussing around, I pretty much left the raw for the zealots and those that think RAW will help them. I still shoot in raw on occasion, but almost always see few benefits. My photography doesn't benefit from it, and the majority of my fun is editing my kids photo's, and they shoot only cell phones and no raw. My biggest battle is getting them to send me full size photo's rather than re-sized text photo's. Generally, their cell photo's meet and exceed my "low" standards. I'm FAR more interested in content than a few missing color tones I can't see anyway:-)

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May 5, 2024 09:41:25   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Raw isn't just a file format, it's a way of life. The RAW photographer accepts as their life's duty the perfection of every pixel, the Kelvin adjustment of every white balance, and to know and to adjust every slider.

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May 5, 2024 09:46:55   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
srt101fan wrote:
I find your use of the term "JPG editor" confusing. I know of RAW editors (RAW developing software) and raster editors. I know that JPGs can be edited in a raster editor after converting the JPG file to another format.

Is there such a thing as a JPG editor?

Simply, a JPG editor is a photo editor that edits jpg files. PS is a jpg editor. A raw editor is one capable of editing at least one of the RAW file formats. Adobe Raw is a RAW editor. Sorry I confused you, was trying to keep it simple.

In the past, possibly still, when you load a RAW file into a raw editor, you only edit color and exposure type stuff. If you want to use the jpg tools such as clone stamps, haze removal tools, warp tools and so on it converts it to a raster file and those tools are used for stuff like replacing heads, removing poles, garbage cans, zits and so on. JPG editors also have all the color stuff available as well.

Ysarex said he uses clone tools and the like in his raw editor which is new to me. I'm waiting for some links on this subject.
I oft wondered why raw editors didn't have these sorts of tools. I guess because of the non-standard raw file types, but that's just a wild guess.

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May 5, 2024 09:50:42   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
BigDaddy wrote:
... Normally, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference, and on occasion, the RAW file came out better than the jpg, but not often enough for me to continue shooting raw...

...After a LOT of fussing around, I pretty much left the raw for the zealots and those that think RAW will help them...


If your raw processing doesn't measure up, you are better off shooting jpg.

I'm one of the raw zealots and my processed raw comes out better than my jpg so it's good for me. I don't expect it will be good for everyone. Do what fits you. But don't generalize and state that raw is not worth the effort. For some that will be true, but it is not an absolute truth. Don't be a raw anti-zealot (or an anti-raw zealot).

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May 5, 2024 09:53:33   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
larryepage wrote:
Does your camera give you the option to change your JPEG file parameters? I save Fine*/Large JPEGs (minimal compression, full resolution). The are almost exactly half the size of the corresponding raw files. When memory was expensive and card sizes were limited, it was common for cameras (either by default or user choice) to brutally compress image files of significantly reduced resolution from what the camera originally produced. I agree that these versions, sometimes only 8-10% size of a Fine*/Large file, are little more than thumbnails. My dad has a whole hard drive and a bunch of CDs of some pretty important snapshots that he thought he was being really frugal y saving as tiny files. They are pretty universally unusable for printing in any size.
Does your camera give you the option to change you... (show quote)

I only shoot jpgs in Fine/Large format. If I later want to save bytes, say for an FYI file, perhaps a photo of the motor plate on a tool or something, I'll reduce the size. If I shoot in raw, not often, I will generally deep six the raw file after editing and saving as a jpg. IF important, I'll also save it as a developer file to preserve all the edits.

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May 5, 2024 09:55:34   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Raw isn't just a file format, it's a way of life. The RAW photographer accepts as their life's duty the perfection of every pixel, the Kelvin adjustment of every white balance, and to know and to adjust every slider.


LOL, .....yes this is IT in a nutshell

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May 5, 2024 10:02:03   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Ysarex wrote:
I have the same type of function in my X-T4. It never produces a camera JPEG equivalent to my processed raw (always inferior) and so requires post processing.

So I just capture the raw file and post process it.

The elephant in the room asks if you only capture raw files how do you know your jpgs are (always inferior). The second elephant wonders if you never capture a jpg and edit it, how do you know how it compares to your edited raw files. Myself, I wonder how you know your jpg highlights are "always" blown out if you only shoot raw?

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May 5, 2024 10:09:42   #
srt101fan
 
BigDaddy wrote:
Simply, a JPG editor is a photo editor that edits jpg files. PS is a jpg editor. A raw editor is one capable of editing at least one of the RAW file formats. Adobe Raw is a RAW editor. Sorry I confused you, was trying to keep it simple.

In the past, possibly still, when you load a RAW file into a raw editor, you only edit color and exposure type stuff. If you want to use the jpg tools such as clone stamps, haze removal tools, warp tools and so on it converts it to a raster file and those tools are used for stuff like replacing heads, removing poles, garbage cans, zits and so on. JPG editors also have all the color stuff available as well.

Ysarex said he uses clone tools and the like in his raw editor which is new to me. I'm waiting for some links on this subject.
I oft wondered why raw editors didn't have these sorts of tools. I guess because of the non-standard raw file types, but that's just a wild guess.
Simply, a JPG editor is a photo editor that edits ... (show quote)


Thanks for the clarification!

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May 5, 2024 10:17:14   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Ysarex wrote:
So that's a great family photo of good times -- well done! You listed things that could be corrected in editing with a raster editor. Begs the question then why didn't you do it? All three RGB channels in the photo are clipping and it shows in the photo. You don't care, it doesn't matter to you, or you can't see it and that's fine. Enjoy your photo. What you can't do is claim that it's technically just as good as if it were processed from a raw file by someone who knows what they're doing. Do you see the banding in the sky and how it changes color toward cyan as it nears the trees? That's because the blue channel is badly blown out. That's fine if you don't see it and/or it doesn't bother you. But it's there and no photographer would do that deliberately because they think it's good -- it's bad. Doesn't bother you, enjoy your photo it's a good captured moment.

Now if you didn't cause the clipping in all three RGB channels and don't have an original to revert to then you can't fix it in a raster editor. Clipped channels means data is missing and you have no data to edit. All you can do is take the blown data and darken it and that can look worse than leaving it blown.
So that's a great family photo of good times -- we... (show quote)

Yes, good enough for me. It was taken one handed on a ski lift with a 4 year old cell phone, sent to me via text as a 305 byte jpg file. You are crazy if you think I have a worry about it not being a 25 MB raw file. Furthermore, NO, I don't see any banding or blown out anything. I don't have X-ray superman eyes, and only an 8 bit monitor.

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May 5, 2024 10:18:32   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
To achieve freedom and happiness, the photographer must grasp this basic truth: the RAW file gives you control over your image, the JPEG gives control to the camera. RAW lets you decide this most basic question of photography: are you the finger or the button?

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May 5, 2024 10:23:55   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
imagemeister wrote:
"You don't care, it doesn't matter to you, or you can't see it and that's fine." and, it is therefore irrelavant to the photographer and viewers .....Technical perfection is NOT always a prerequisite for successful image making/art ! ........but, for college instructors - probably


Reminds me of Psyc. majors oft going nutz studying all that gook!

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May 5, 2024 10:26:11   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
BigDaddy wrote:
The elephant in the room asks if you only capture raw files how do you know your jpgs are (always inferior). The second elephant wonders if you never capture a jpg and edit it, how do you know how it compares to your edited raw files. Myself, I wonder how you know your jpg highlights are "always" blown out if you only shoot raw?


When I first got a DSLR I shot jpg because that's what I knew (and it was the default format from the camera). Eventually I screwed up some settings and my jpgs took hours to get them to look good and I couldn't repeat the shoot. So I started shooting raw+jpg. I could compare the processed raw with the jpg and it was almost always better. Around that time I started using Lightroom for editing. So it didn't matter whether I gave it a raw file or a jpg, I could edit it. The raw file came out better (in my opinion). So I dropped the jpg and shot raw only. Since I always did some work in Lightroom (if only adding keywords for organization), and since Lightroom didn't care whether it started with a raw or a jpg, there was no reason for me to shoot anything but raw. It costs me no time. The keywording process is charged to organization, not editing.

So much for my elephants. Big Daddy's on his own.

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May 5, 2024 10:45:35   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
'Most' everything is not the same as everything.

Shoot raw for the exceptions.

Yes, that's why I said "most". Of course their are exceptions but for me not enough to worry about. The word that comes to mind for me is "overkill."

If I had the skills, equipment and sold my pictures of one like billnikon, I might consider shooting raw just on the chance I might be able to squeeze out a tiny ounce more. I'm not him (look at my photo's and then his.) Look at most anyone's photo's then his and you should recognize that RAW is not the answer.
For me, after 50+ years of taking photo's, I enjoy editing my kids cell phone pictures as much or more than my own. They could care less about photography, have lousy dammed cell phones, and take wonderful pics that are easily edited as jpgs.

Here's a jpg cell pic of my GD combined with a jpg mushroom from my "real" camera. I combined them in my jpg editor. It came out good enough for me when my GD asked "Pappy, how'd you make me so small?" Either shot in RAW would have been just a waste of time.


(Download)

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May 5, 2024 11:05:31   #
BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
If your raw processing doesn't measure up, you are better off shooting jpg.

I'm one of the raw zealots and my processed raw comes out better than my jpg so it's good for me. I don't expect it will be good for everyone. Do what fits you. But don't generalize and state that raw is not worth the effort. For some that will be true, but it is not an absolute truth. Don't be a raw anti-zealot (or an anti-raw zealot).

If your jpg processing doesn't measure up, shoot RAW. JPG is not for everyone. When I say raw is not worth the effort, It should be understood I'm speaking for myself, not everyone. I've noted several times that for some, like billnikon, shooting RAW may be the only way to shoot. When I speak of raw zealots, I'm not necessarily talking about you just because you always shoot in raw. A raw zealot is one who constantly pontificates that RAW is for everyone, and exaggerates to the extreme the benefits of raw. There are a small handful of those, and when they show up, I enjoy the banter. BTW, I often shoot in RAW and never to my knowledge insinuated that no one should ever shoot in raw. It's benefits for most, imo, is the last thing most need.

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May 5, 2024 11:10:55   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
BigDaddy wrote:
If your jpg processing doesn't measure up, shoot RAW. JPG is not for everyone. When I say raw is not worth the effort, It should be understood I'm speaking for myself, not everyone. I've noted several times that for some, like billnikon, shooting RAW may be the only way to shoot. When I speak of raw zealots, I'm not necessarily talking about you just because you always shoot in raw. A raw zealot is one who constantly pontificates that RAW is for everyone, and exaggerates to the extreme the benefits of raw. There are a small handful of those, and when they show up, I enjoy the banter. BTW, I often shoot in RAW and never to my knowledge insinuated that no one should ever shoot in raw. It's benefits for most, imo, is the last thing most need.
If your jpg processing doesn't measure up, shoot R... (show quote)


So we are on opposite sides of a Möbius strip?

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